FILE 597 / 15 May 2025 / 179 MIN / full

Talkative Serial Killer

Kellogg, IdahoListen

The town

N ↑Public placePublic placeTown centre (approximate places)
Static locations; no street basemap. Places and details. OpenFreeMap © OpenMapTiles Data from OpenStreetMap.

This week, in Kellogg, Idaho; up in the northern part of Idaho, in Shoshone County. about 0:04:21

History, in brief

Town note

The town motto is "founded by a jackass and inhabited by his descendants".

about 0:05:27

Town note

Kellogg is named after Noah Kellogg, whose donkey alerted a prospector to a mountain outcropping of galena, a lead ore often containing silver.

about 0:05:37

1960

The population in 1960 was 6,000; it was a booming mining town.

about 0:06:19
All 10 history facts

Town note

The town motto is "founded by a jackass and inhabited by his descendants".

about 0:05:27

Town note

Kellogg is named after Noah Kellogg, whose donkey alerted a prospector to a mountain outcropping of galena, a lead ore often containing silver.

about 0:05:37

1960

The population in 1960 was 6,000; it was a booming mining town.

about 0:06:19

Town note

It became a centre of silver mining, with a lot of silver coming out of the ground.

about 0:06:24

1972

In May 1972 the Sunshine Mine in Kellogg was the site of one of the worst mining accidents in US history, a fire that killed 91 miners.

about 0:06:30

Town note

Eight days after the fire started, when everyone was assumed dead, two men emerged from the 4,800-foot level near a fresh-air source.

about 0:06:54

1981

The Bunker Hill mine and smelter closed in 1981 as the yield waned, and thousands lost their jobs.

about 0:07:24

Town note

Mining operations caused regional lead contamination of the water and soil.

about 0:07:36

Town note

Kellogg has since been developing as a resort town, trying to take advantage of skiing.

about 0:07:46

The figures, as told

Religious

25%

Biggest faith: Lutheran, 5.8%

about 0:11:17

Who lives here

White 91.2% · Black 0.0% · Asian 0.0% · Hispanic 2.5%

Ethnicity can overlap race.

Crime / national average

Property crime
▲ slightly above the national average

about 0:19:08

Violent crime
▼ just below average

about 0:19:08

Money

Median home value$256,900
Two-bedroom rentabout $860 a month
Median household income$35,658
Cost of living77

For sale

$125,000

One-bed, one-bath, 580-square-foot house listing

about 0:13:25

For sale

$299,000

Three-bed, two-bath, 1,526-square-foot house listing built in 1910

about 0:14:06

For sale

$430,000

Four-bed, one-bath, 2,116-square-foot house listing

about 0:14:51
All figures and comparisons, as told in 2025

Property crime

"slightly above the national average"

Comparison: "national average". Direction: above.

As told in 2025 about 0:19:08

Violent crime (murder, rape, robbery and assault)

"just below average"

Comparison: "national average". Direction: below.

As told in 2025 about 0:19:08

Population

"2,255"

Comparison: "6,000 in 1960". No direction stated.

As told in 2025 about 0:10:32

Median age

"about 34"

Comparison: "younger than the national average by a few years". Direction: below.

As told in 2025 about 0:10:53

Married rate

"about 43%"

Comparison: "lower than normal". Direction: below.

As told in 2025 about 0:10:53

White residents

"91.2%"

No direction stated.

As told in 2025 about 0:11:07

Black residents

"0.0%"

No direction stated.

As told in 2025 about 0:11:07

Asian residents

"0.0%"

No direction stated.

As told in 2025 about 0:11:07

Native American residents

"1.5%"

No direction stated.

As told in 2025 about 0:11:07

Hispanic residents

"2.5%"

No direction stated.

As told in 2025 about 0:11:07

Unemployment rate

"about 7.5%"

Comparison: "higher than the national average". Direction: above.

As told in 2025 about 0:11:48

Median household income

"$35,658"

Comparison: "national average about $69,000". No direction stated.

As told in 2025 about 0:11:56

Religious residents

"25%"

Comparison: "50-50 is the national average". Direction: below.

As told in 2025 about 0:11:17

Lutheran

"5.8%"

Comparison: "largest religious group". No direction stated.

As told in 2025 about 0:11:27

Cost of living

"77"

Comparison: "100 is the regular average". Direction: below.

As told in 2025 about 0:12:13

Median home cost

"$256,900"

Comparison: "below the national average". Direction: below.

As told in 2025 about 0:12:18

Average two-bedroom rent

"about $860 a month"

Comparison: "well below the national average". Direction: below.

As told in 2025 about 0:12:42

One-bed, one-bath, 580-square-foot house listing

"$125,000"

No direction stated.

As told in 2025 about 0:13:25

Three-bed, two-bath, 1,526-square-foot house listing built in 1910

"$299,000"

No direction stated.

As told in 2025 about 0:14:06

Four-bed, one-bath, 2,116-square-foot house listing

"$430,000"

No direction stated.

As told in 2025 about 0:14:51

The reviews

3.0 / 5 · average of 3

5 stars

“A great little town with lots of character and many surrounding towns; peaceful, not too many people and not a lot of hype, surrounded by mountains with easy access to hunting, fishing, rivers, lakes and hiking trails.”
about 0:08:11

3 stars

“A very small town, home to Dave Smith, whose vehicles are everywhere; the reviewer took two stars away for that, but calls the scenery beautiful with plenty of trails and rivers for outdoors people.”
about 0:08:39

1 star

“Completely toxic in a literal sense: the environment was deemed poisonous, an entire school district of elementary-age children had the highest blood lead levels in the world, people are in denial and domestic violence, sexual assault, suicides and homicides are through the roof.”
about 0:09:18

In Idaho

Closest episodes

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  2. Family Murder TreePost Falls, Idaho · 24 July 202664 km / 40 miShow on map
  3. Mystery Of The Fake DadSandpoint, Idaho · 3 February 202489 km / 55 miShow on map
  4. You Are... Not The FatherDeer Park, Washington · 15 December 2023109 km / 68 miShow on map
  5. A Messy Murder PlotKendrick, Idaho · 26 July 2017110 km / 68 miShow on map

The story

His father was a career soldier and the family moved every year or two, including postings in Europe. By then he was using marijuana daily, along with acid, amphetamines, barbiturates, Valium and PCP.

In 1980, aged seventeen, he broke into a neighbour's house and stole four pistols, a thousand rounds of ammunition and pornographic magazines. He said later that he had meant to go home and look at the magazines, but instead took a gun and went cruising for a victim. He found a fourteen-year-old boy outside a school, forced him into the woods at gunpoint, made him perform oral sex twice, beat him with a stick and burned his buttocks with a cigarette.

The court imposed twenty years and suspended all of it, sending him instead to a sex offender treatment programme at Western State Hospital. A psychological evaluation found him preoccupied with deviant sexual fantasies and described him as meeting the definition of a sexual psychopath. He told doctors that his sexual history began at eight, that he had forced a five-year-old boy to perform oral sex on him by the age of twelve, that he had abused a nine-year-old at gunpoint at fifteen and that by sixteen he had committed thirteen rapes of young boys.

On Valentine's Day 1982 his mother stayed with him at a hospital cottage used for family visits. After she went to bed he took a coat, gloves and an extension cord, climbed the hospital wall and crept up to a nearby house, where a dog barked and he was spotted. He climbed back and woke his mother, and according to the report she then taught him to disco dance. After twenty-two months the programme gave up on him, and he was returned to custody.

He worked in telemarketing for Time Life books, moved into the Tuscany apartments in Seattle in April 1995, and in January 1996 began dating a married Seattle mother of two while working at a software company in Bothell.

He later told the FBI that they were his first revenge against society, and that he killed them with a crowbar. Their skeletal remains were found a year and a half later.

In April 1997 he abducted ten-year-old Anthony Martinez from an alley in Riverside, California, after luring three boys with a photograph of a cat and a dollar each.

He moved to Fargo, North Dakota, enrolled at North Dakota State University to study computer science, made the dean's list twice, and registered as a Level Three sex offender. On 3 July 2004, at Detroit Lakes, Minnesota, he was seen filming children near playground equipment with a video camera. He called over a six-year-old boy and his eight-year-old friend, pulled down the younger boy's shorts and touched him.

No warrant was issued; a summons was mailed to his Fargo home. He appeared in Becker County court on 5 April 2005, where bail was set at $15,000. Police searched his apartment on 5 May 2005 and found him gone, along with a rented Jeep.

On 11 May 2005 he posted on his blog, The Fifth Nail, that he was scared, alone and confused and that his intent was to harm society as much as he could and then die. He had stalked the Groene family for two days after seeing eight-year-old Shasta playing outside in her bathing suit. On 17 May 2005 deputies on a welfare check entered the family home on Frontage Road near Wolf Lodge, Idaho, and found Brenda Groene, forty, her thirteen-year-old son Slade and her fiancé Edward McKenzie, thirty-seven, face down and dead. All three had been bound with zip ties and duct tape and killed with a claw hammer: Slade was struck fourteen times, McKenzie seven and Brenda three. Shasta and her nine-year-old brother Dylan were gone.

At about 1.30am on 2 July 2005 Shasta was recognised by a customer and an employee at a Denny's restaurant in Coeur d'Alene. Two days later investigators found human remains at a campsite near St Regis. Dylan had been shot in the head with a sawn-off shotgun after, by Shasta's account, a first accidental discharge hit him in the stomach.

Fingerprints tied him to the Martinez scene, and on 3 August 2005 the Riverside County sheriff announced the link. The deal spared Shasta from testifying.

He was held at the federal penitentiary in Terre Haute, Indiana. In early 2021 he was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer and given six to twelve months. He died on 28 March 2021, less than three months later. Shasta Groene survived, gave evidence, graduated from a treatment programme, and in 2015 spoke of wanting to become a counsellor; in 2024 a fire destroyed her trailer.

The case

Groene family murders and the kidnappings of Shasta and Dylan Groene

Victims

Brenda K. Groene (40). divorced mother of five; engaged to Edward McKenzie
Edward McKenzie (37). Brenda's fiancé, known to the family as Mark
Slade Groene (13). Brenda's son
Dylan Groene (9). Brenda's son; kidnapped and shot in the head in Montana
Shasta Groene (8). Brenda's daughter; kidnapped and held for almost two months, survived

Accused and outcomes

As told in the episode, on 15 May 2025.

Accused

Outcome

Other people

Bob Price. Shasta's uncle
Catherine Bale. review board chairwoman who met Waxman
Sherry Cox. sister, who said their mother beat the children
Dr William Vorhees Jr. clinical director at Western State Hospital
Jackie Allen. clerk at a St Regis gas station who recognised after his photograph was published
Ted Beemus. installed the security cameras at the Conoco station
Lisa Humphrey. Coeur d'Alene resident who said should be put to death

The timeline

  1. February 25th, 1963 is born (Fort Bragg)about 0:19:55
  2. 1957 His parents marry in Pennsylvania; his father joins the army in 1958about 0:21:38
  3. 1978 His father retires from the military and takes a job at the Tacoma Area Bulk Mail Center (Tacoma Area Bulk Mail Center)about 0:23:40
  4. 1979 His parents separate after twenty-two years of marriageabout 0:24:46
  5. 1979 He drops out of Lakes High School midway through his sophomore year (Lakes High School)about 0:25:54
  6. 1980 At seventeen he breaks into a neighbour's house and steals four pistols, a thousand rounds of ammunition and pornographic magazinesabout 0:28:50
  7. 1980 He forces a fourteen-year-old boy into the woods at gunpoint, sexually assaults him twice, beats him with a stick and burns his buttocks with a cigaretteabout 0:30:53
  8. 1980 He is given twenty years, all suspended, and committed to a sex offender treatment programme at Western State Hospital (Western State Hospital)about 0:34:34
  9. February 14th, 1982 He climbs the hospital wall at night and peeps into a nearby home; a dog barks and he flees back to the hospital cottage (Western State Hospital)about 0:42:06
  10. January 2nd, 1991 He begins a pen-pal correspondence with King County revenue officer David Wolfortabout 0:46:22
  11. April 1995 He moves out of the halfway house into the Tuscany apartments in Seattle (Tuscany apartments)about 0:49:42
  12. January 1996 He begins dating a married Seattle mother of two and takes a job at a software company in Bothellabout 0:50:29
  13. 1996 He abducts and kills Carmen Cubias and Sammy Joe White in Seattle (Crest Motel)about 1:51:31
  14. April 1997 He abducts and murders ten-year-old Anthony Martinez in Riverside, California (Burdew Canyon)about 1:50:08
  15. 2000 He moves to Fargo, enrols at North Dakota State University and registers as a Level Three sex offender (North Dakota State University)about 0:58:42
  16. July 3rd, 2004 At a lakeside playground in Detroit Lakes he films children, pulls down a six-year-old boy's shorts and touches him (Lakeside playground)about 1:01:41
  17. May 5th, 2005 Police search his Fargo apartment and find him gone, along with a rented Jeep ('s Fargo apartment)about 1:08:13
  18. May 11th, 2005 He posts on his blog The Fifth Nail that his intent is to harm society as much as he can and then dieabout 1:09:08
  19. May 2005 After stalking the family for two days he enters the Groene home, binds and kills Brenda, Mark and Slade and takes Shasta and Dylan (Groene house)about 2:04:18
  20. May 17th, 2005 Deputies on a welfare check find Brenda, Slade and Mark dead of hammer blows; Shasta and Dylan are missing (Groene house)about 1:16:02

Murder of Anthony Martinez

Victims

Anthony Martinez (10). lured from an alley behind a neighbour's backyard and killed

Accused and outcomes

As told in the episode, on 15 May 2025.

Accused

Outcome

Other people

Ernesto Medina. Anthony's father, who searched for three days and nights
Mark Martinez. Anthony's younger brother, who was almost taken

The timeline

  1. April 1997 lures three boys with a photograph of a cat and a dollar each, then grabs Anthony Martinez and drives away with himabout 1:53:03
  2. two days after the murder visits Mexicoabout 1:54:57
  3. three days after the abduction He writes in his journal that he has fulfilled his greatest fantasyabout 1:55:20
  4. April 19th, 1997 A park ranger finds Anthony's body among rocks in Burdew Canyon in the Indio Hills (Burdew Canyon)about 1:56:05

Murders of Carmen Cubias and Sammy Joe White

Victims

Carmen Cubias (9). one of two sisters taken from outside the Crest Motel
Sammy Joe White (11). one of two sisters taken from outside the Crest Motel

Accused and outcomes

As told in the episode, on 15 May 2025.

Accused

Outcome

Other people

Margaret Delaney. mother of Carmen and Sammy Joe

The timeline

  1. 1996 Carmen Cubias, nine, and Sammy Joe White, eleven, leave the Crest Motel room to visit a Taco Time across the street and never return (Crest Motel)about 1:51:47
  2. 1996 Their mother sends their fifteen-year-old brother to look, searches for an hour and calls police (Crest Motel)about 1:52:30
  3. a year and a half later The girls' skeletal remains are foundabout 1:52:37

Places and phrases

N ↑Public placePublic placeTown centre (approximate places)
Static locations; no street basemap. Places and details. OpenFreeMap © OpenMapTiles Data from OpenStreetMap.

Places in the story

Public places are marked on the map.

Heard in this episode